Today’s guest is Steve. And Steve and I met when he and Beth moved to Tasmania and started attending our church. And I’ve already chatted with Beth and I think she’s episode 56 of this podcast.
But now I get to talk to Steve as well, because they’re brilliant people.
So they moved to Tassie for a while. And Steve and I worked at the same university, which was pretty cool. And then they had to move away, which was incredibly uncool. And they’ve done quite a bit of moving, which I’d like to talk to Steve about. Steve and Beth have three beautiful daughters. And, um, and yes, it’s funny ’cause Steve and I both worked as academics for a while and now Beth and I do very similar jobs. So I sort of I’ve swapped.
So, yeah, it’s been good to keep in touch. And I’m really excited to talk to Steve today. So welcome, Steve.
Thank you, Ruth. Yeah, I had never appreciated the irony of being colleague with you at uni and now you’re effectively a colleague of my wife.
I know it’s funny isn’t it.
That’s actually very good. Yeah.
Okay. So we’ll start where we always start which is by asking how did you become a Christian?
Well the first thing to say is that my parents were not people of faith in the same way that I would describe someone of faith. They had a nominal background.
They didn’t resent the church or reject it, or anything and sent me to Sunday school and things like that. They were they never had any attendance of their own. So I came very much to my own decision about Jesus, and moderately late in life, like when I was 17 or 18 years old. So, what I guess my point there is that that it wasn’t something that was influenced by my parents.
And therefore, I think there’s a real power in that because my testimony isn’t just one of childhood inheritance, but it’s one where I believe I encountered the living God myself and can say, look, He is real.
How it actually happened was a long journey, even as when I was sent to Sunday school, you know, my parents sent both me and my sister as a young kid. I lapped it up. I liked Sunday school. I enjoyed the stories. I appreciated the people who were teaching me. I kind of grew up believing something of the Bible.
Then I got to high school and struggled a little bit at high school in terms of making friends, in terms of settling in. And I was kind of looking for something. We lived in a rural village in north west England. You had to make your own entertainment. We were surrounded by farmland and there wasn’t a great deal to do. So was either TV or outdoors or hanging around on street corners. And lots of people made all those choices. Fortunately, I really appreciate the outdoors and I got in. So I first tried scouts. Cubs and scouts.
And then I fell into a group in the village, which was the Boys Brigade, which is in the UK, is a is a faith based organisation. It’s a bit like scouts, it actually pre-dates scout. Scouts was actually inspired by Boys Brigade, but it’s much more explicit in its Christian teaching content. So although you did all the activities camping. I learned so much through them. I did chess, judo, table tennis, hiking, outdoor, sort of multi-endurance competitions, yearly camps. It was great fun. But they also because we had a leader who was a genuine man of faith, every Sunday, you’d attend church and you’d be dressed in a uniform and you’d have a little parade and you’d be part of it. You’d be expected to take that seriously. And there was a kind of like a youth church where we all got together and had our own little teaching, which was really formative.
And then I got sick and I got sick because although I was involved in all this Christian stuff, I didn’t really understand it. And some of my other friendships or. Well, they weren’t it wasn’t even a friendship. It was because I was lonely. I got involved with a kid who was probably one of the few other kids who who seemed a bit of an outsider at school. And I went to his to the countryside one weekend with him and his stepfather. And it was in this beautiful remote valley and turned out this kid took occultic practices very seriously. So he was. He believed he was a wizard. He was very much into the occult and. And we kind of played around that.
But then at the end of the weekend, he got a little bit more seriously serious. And there was a kind of ceremony thing. And he said to me very explicitly, ‘you know, what I’m doing here, Steven, is nothing of the church has any part of it. In fact, this is in complete opposition to the church’, which is very perceptive.
He was only 14 or 15 years old, and he already knew that what he was doing that he was the enemy. That he considered Christianity an enemy. He considered everything that of Christ to be in opposition to him. And the day that happened, something died within me. I actually physically felt something die within me. And I was so terrified.
And in the months after that, I developed OCD. What does that stand for again?
Obsessive compulsive disorder.
Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah, the hand-washing and the …
Well, that’s only one version.
I definitely had not hand-washing, but I definitely got obsessed with germs and I was always having to sort of rub my hands down if I touched someone or something. I just felt like really uncomfortable. But then it developed from there and it became much more terrifying.
In the sense that I felt that I had committed the sin that can never be forgiven. Or maybe I was even something darker. I obsessed over being the Antichrist. I could not stop chanting, so I would pray, pray, pray. But it was basically the same crazy words all the time. Clearly, my family saw this. You couldn’t hide it. I was struggling to hide it at school. My mum was very, very worried. And she got me to a psychologist. And in fact, part of the healing process was to withdraw from Sunday services and Christian content, Boys Brigade, because actually it just made me worse, so I would it would just became a trigger. Yeah. And so the guy who led the Boys Brigade was a very wise man. And he he understood that and he actually had a chat with my mother and he spoke, you know, he said ‘Steven, you really need to step away and come back when you’re feeling better.’.
So that was going on in my life, it was pretty serious and it was connected to depression and loneliness. What was happening around me was the man who led Boys Brigade had a son called Alister and his son was a few years older than me. And he was one of those guys that everyone looked up to. And he also professed to what appeared to be very serious faith at Boys Brigade. Turned out it was a he was charlatane he was lying or pretending or not really living, living his words. We didn’t know that. Anyway, he actually finished high school and went to university. And the very first few months of uni involved a trip to Holland. And he was on this aeroplane flying to Holland as part of his course.
And all his classmates were just like him, and they were actually just there for the party. The drink, the drugs, the women. And he realised on that flight over. That either he would have to abandon any pretence of Christian faith or take it seriously. And thank God he got off the aeroplane, left the course immediately and joined, went to Bible school. Took three months out.
Basically, you know, there and then on the aeroplane, he he committed to Christ. And then he went and and took time to learn what that really meant. And he came back the weekend that I had my first Sunday back feeling a little bit better, but I wasn’t better. I was still ill. I just felt I could cope and I wanted to go.
And he came back that weekend and he took the Boys Brigade Sunday service thing and basically just gave his testimony. And at the end of it, I decided I did not know if Jesus was real or not.
I had no way of proving to myself that this thing called Christianity had any substance to it. But I could see the change in Alister’s life. I heard his words and on the balance of everything that I’d seen and heard over the years, I walked home and said, you know, Lord, I do not know if you’re real, but I’m going to decide to commit to you today anyway and we’ll see what happens. And the day the moment I did that my obsessive compulsive disorder left me. And I’ve never suffered since.
That’s amazing. That’s fantastic.
It was quite an experience. I didn’t have a, there wasn’t like a lightning bolt or anything. I just never suffered from it again. And it was a bit like I think I had a sort of vision thing. I don’t quite know how this fits in, but I remember feeling like I was in a very dark tunnel and there was just no way out.
It was just blackness all around. And I was terrified, like I didn’t know what was in the dark with you, didn’t know if there was a train, that was gonna come. And then I suddenly came to the realisation in the tunnel, in this vision, that it wasn’t a tunnel at all. I had just I just perceived it all wrong in the first place. And in fact, it was just mist and it began to lift and the sunlight came through.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s such a nice explanation.
Yeah. But of course, salvation isn’t a moment. I mean that was a moment, but it was a that was a big moment on on a journey that been taking place since Sunday school as a kid. And it was just one step on the way to continuing to work things out. So university was very formative, so exciting to go to uni and meet other young people who were exhilarated to believe in Christ. And I was part of the Christian Union, and that was a huge time for me. And I also joined an organisation called WYSOCS (West Yorkshire School of Christian Studies) who were very concerned about loving God with your mind and thinking Christianity and demonstrating that there are people of faith throughout academia in all the highest pursuits, from politics to history, arts, physics, maths, you name it, and that you can live your faith out in all those disciplines. So those things were very important to me as well.
Yeah. I have a question for me from something you said way back, which is you talked about, you know, it being important to you that this wasn’t just the faith of your parents that you took on board and that this was a decision that was obviously made for yourself. How are you helping your daughters to make that same decision for themselves? Because obviously, you and Beth are very vibrant in your faith are there things that you’re doing to help them sort of decide for themselves?
I know they’re young.
That’s a good question, because Zola is still quite young.
But both Anna and Lily have had moments where they explicitly said, ah, I think I’m going to believe. And we prayed about it. And we didn’t force that on them, we didn’t even tell them that you have to make a prayer like that they came to that naturally.
But yet so they’ve both sort of made a genuine commitment themselves internally. And Zola has just internalised the faith of the whole family. So she’s yet to come to the point where she would say something as explicit as that.
Having said that, you know, they did that very young and there have been periods, even at the ages of 8 and 11, where they’ve really questioned, how do I know this is real?
And so as parents, you would just continue to allow them to question and ask whatever they want and let them come to their own decisions, but also share our experience.
I also should clear something up. For a long time, you know, I came across Christians particularly at university who had had really remarkable conversions, and there is something that’s, you know, really exhilarating and special about someone coming to faith late in life and often in miraculous ways, you know? But I’ve come to understand the last few years and I make sure I want to make sure that I don’t give anyone the wrong impression from what I said earlier. I’ve come to understand in the last few years that there is something that’s really precious about having a faith from early childhood, from your first memories. And I think in the church we have a tendency to to favour the other. To the extent that many, many people feel they’re somehow second class Christians, having never had that miracle moment. But, you know, one of the great Christians of the church, the early fathers church fathers, was Timothy. And he grew up from an early age, knowing the scriptures and being taught in his faith to the extent where Paul realised here was a special young man. And he was going to mentor him directly. And I think in some ways, it’s even more impressive to be able to come to have faith and keep faith from an early childhood point.
Yeah, I mean, that’s my experience. You know, being brought up in a Christian, in a very strong Christian family. And I can pinpoint times in my life where I’ve had to say, look, am I in or am I out? But I know that I had to I still had to make decisions. But the inheritance that I have from parents and grandparents who are really strong Christians is just incredible. And I’m so blessed by it. It really does mean something special to me to have that inheritance as well, that heritage.
Anyway, enough about me. Why did you move to Australia?
That was easy. I did my PhD at Leeds University in the Earth Sciences I was a geologist and at the end of the PhD Beth and I were already married and an opportunity came up to apply for a postdoc with someone whose work I had been reading as part of my own science research and who I really admired his research. Never met him, didn’t know what he was like, said to Beth. Ah, there’s this job opportunity in Australia it’s only two years.
You know, it’s good CV practise. I’ll apply for a job and then we can decide. So I applied and fair enough. I got it. And then we had to decide and I was super excited. Part of me had always, you know, outdoors, travelled around the world and doing science like geology. You’re never really gonna be a home boy. And Australia was something beautiful and exotic and a country I’d always wanted to see. And so, yes, all those things came into it. Not necessarily in a way that was very clearly communicated to my wife.
And 20 years later, we’re still here.
Yeah, well, I’m happy about that.
And you’ve seen a lot of Australia because you’ve been moved from pillar to post, and that’s part of the academic life really isn’t it? The short term contracts.
Yes, and not a good part of it. It’s a very unhealthy part of academic life. So for anyone who’s listening. Yeah, we have served at the Australian National University University of Tasmania, University of Western Australia, and at Monash University. And we also had a short stint living in Sydney in between the last two. And I rose to the rank of associate professor but never had a permanent contract.
I came to Australia full of ideals and dreams that somehow I would be representing Christ in what is a very dark environment. Well, it’s not. It is a dark environment. You could argue all of society is evil. But there’s probably something specifically dark in academia because it’s an environment where secularism has such a large hold that it deliberately sets itself against … there are people who work, who think, who talk explicitly against the Christian faith, against Christ. And in that sense, and deny that that Jesus exists, denied he could be the son of God. So if you’re gonna go by the definition that’s written in James, then academia has within it in its present guise the spirits of the Antichrist. That’s not to say that there aren’t incredible people of faith in many disciplines around the world. They were always an inspiration to me.
How did you show your faith in that place?
Well, in several universities, I got other Christians together and we had weekly prayer groups and really tried to encourage each other and pray for one other. Then it was a matter of taking opportunities as they arose and not being afraid to make people know that I was a Christian and allow conversations to come up naturally. But it wasn’t, I don’t think there’s any way you can you can force it. And in fact, forcing it is, you know, we need to earn the right for people to listen.
When I was at ANU we did something. I was involved with another sort of World View organisation. And we ran a conference there, which was quite fun.
But yeah, it was kind of piecemeal. You know, my time in Canberra was probably the most focused. We’re part of a church that was very focused on living faith out in the workplace. We did that conference, I ran the group. But nothing really blossomed. And that sense of going from uni to uni and trying to do things with intent, but finding nothing really took off or blossomed. Funnily enough, I found that an experience that was repeated.
Yeah, that’s interesting because when I worked at the uni, I tried as well to get a prayer group off the ground and I think I tried for three years and. Yeah.
Hard going, yeah.
Very often it was just me which you know, if that’s what God want me to do, then I was doing it. But yeah, it was hard. It was tough. So yeah, I’ve had the same experience.
I’ve come to understand that subsequently, in a slightly different way. In that when we moved when we left Tasmania, and left you guys and we went to Perth, again that was a forced move. It was a very difficult thing. We didn’t want to leave Tassie. It resulted in severe financial stress for us related to houses. Shortly after moving, Beth’s father died. We had an extremely difficult pregnancy, second pregnancy. And Beth struggled with post-natal depression for a while. And we had a very hard time. And that continued professionally as well in UWA. And then from there, something special happened. God blessed us with a third child. Unexpectedly. And God blessed me with a new job in Monash, in Melbourne unexpectedly, which was sort of like a dream role. But again, still temporary. And we had a little time, too, and we and we found a wonderful church back in Melbourne as well. A bit like the wonderful church in Tassie that you and I were part of. And in fact, the one in Melbourne is connected to the one in Tassie. That’s how we got settled there.
Anyway so we had a lot of time to reflect on the kind of valley of the shadow of darkness that we were had been walking through. And I realised that despite me believing and talking a lot about representing, wanting to pursue academic positions and roles and work because I wanted to represent Christ faithfully there, I realised that there were deep parts of me where there was a real idolatry. Because I think because I struggled at school and then I’d blossomed at uni, there was something deep inside me that saw that, you know, the ultimate proof of yourself was being able to make it as a professor.
So there was an idolatry there. I actually was valuing the esteem and the prestige that I saw attached to being in that environment. And one of the things had been frustration to me was I felt like I was doing lots of good research, but I never got awards and galas and recognition for it. And slowly I came to realise that I think God was putting his finger on things that I was treasuring that should not be treasured: esteem from human beings, prestige. That I thought, you know, that deep down was basically me stroking an intellectual ego. Making myself feel good about it. And as we came to realise that, you know, I I let go of it as I recognised that God has made me a geologist, but he hasn’t necessarily made me an academic. He did make me an academic. But it didn’t necessary. It wasn’t necessary for me to remain in that world.
That there might be lots of paths to take. And what was most important was those things deep inside me that were actually false. And idolatries and treasures that where I was drawing value from in terms of my identity. That weren’t of Christ. They were really exposed and they needed to die. There were other ones around, you know, contentment. We struggled financially. And part of me realised that when I first went into academia, I had this crazy, mistaken impression because I’d seen all these wealthy professors at university that somehow that would happen to me as well. And so actually, that was although money had never been a real driver for me, I recognise that actually deep down it was. There was a part of me that was expecting financial security and contentment from that.
And so that it sort of leads nicely into the fact that you are no longer an academic.
Yeah. Yeah. Well that was a that’s a yes. That’s an interesting story.
So, you know, we we had these I had these idols and treasures exposed and I really came to peace with that. And at Monash University, I started a whole area of research related to drones. And I really, Monash is just the most wonderful. Of all my academic experiences in universities, being at Monash was by far the best. Incredibly supportive internally. I had a leadership above me in the Vice Provost and Dean and and Head of School and, um, provosts at the time who were willing to listen to young academics, sure I was an associate professor, but I wasn’t at the professor level. They were willing to take ideas and they were willing to support them financially.
And so I put together a business plan over those three years and founded a whole institute around drones. And I worked towards being nominated as director for that. And we won a big grant to get equipment for it from the ARC, which is the big government organisation that funds research. And my research impacts went through the roof in parallel with this. So my papers were doing really well. I ended up supervising 23 students. I began to do research all over the world and some of the best exotic places New Zealand, the Canary Islands, the Sierra Nevadas in the US.
I had a ball. But at same time, I recognise now where my false treasures and idols had been placed and I kind of thought that the God was now blessing things and opening them up and. And ultimately, I was I’d got this insitute off the ground and I was made director, but it was with a three year contract still. And the leadership at uni changed.
I was, because of everything that happened to my, you know, it was beyond my wildest dreams where I was at now compared to my work where I had been four, five years ago. I thought, okay, well, even though the leadership’s changing things will, that’s kind of worrying for me in my family, but things will work out.
Yeah, I’ve made it to this level now, so it’s all gonna come to flower.
Yeah, God had always been faithful.
And I think actually this you know, there was definitely a there’s a real truth in that if you believe that …
If you’re abiding in God, abiding Christ and you believe you are where he is put you, you’re there at that time for his purposes. You know, if you’re faithfully seeking him and laying all your decisions before him and remaining is is a perfectly feasible option, then then you take that on trust and remain.
We could easily have made that decision. But what happened was I got everything I wanted and then out of the blue a mining company headhunted me, which is Anglo American. And I recognise that being at the age of forty five, that this was a crossroads that I couldn’t, if I said no to them, and I had turned down many mining companies in the past, if I said no to them now, I would be locking myself into academia because I would never have an opportunity in industry again. And I was willing to do that because I, because everything I’d ever wanted had just become realised, apart from the permanency.
But we prayed about it. And then two people quite independently whom I respected within the church challenged me on that decision. And one of them phoned me up and he never phones. He never voluntarily phones me. And he said, you know, Steven, you have daughters. And in three years time, if things don’t work out, they’ll be at high school. And one of them, you know, will be going through puberty, very hard time for her, uprooting instability in this period of life is going to be really tough. Are you sure you’re making the right decision?
So at that point, I actually thought that God was challenging me on the decision himself.
I felt that he was saying, you know, consider this very carefully, and actually making me, wanting me to, to not necessarily commit to academia.
So we prayed about it. We went to church laid it before the leaders. Had lots of people praying for us. And we were praying about it a lot, our little house group was praying about it a lot. And we just basically asked one thing, that if we’re to stay, then may the university change the offer. So I’ve been given this directorship. I’ve got a huge responsibility now, but a lot of risk. And I needed the uni to recognise that as a family, we required a longer term contract or permanency. But, you know, it just wasn’t going to them saying, hey, change your minds. I went to them very honestly. I said, look, there’s an international mining company who headhunted me. We’ve put all this work into this new institute. I will stay. I don’t want a promotion. I don’t want more money but I’m giving you the opportunity before the company offer me their job. Give me the opportunity to consider whether you can make me permanent and that this was without even knowing whether Anglo American would offer me the job. I hadn’t been through all the interviews yet. And at the end of all that, the uni basically didn’t increase the offer even a little bit. You know, they didn’t even offer to extend the three years to five years. But Anglo-American did offer me the role. And so with some sadness of heart, but truly believing this is one of those points in life where it actually matters what decision you make. That God really was leading us into a new chapter. Then we made the decision to move to Brisbane and me take up my role with Anglo American.
So there was a a dying to those research dreams, but a trusting God that he has a new purpose and new plans in store. And also it was also providing for us in a special way at a time we needed it.
Yeah. Absolutely. So at this point, you know, you’d really like to say, and they all lived happily ever after.
Thus far-ish. Yeah.
That’s good to hear.
We’ve only been here six months. So.
Yeah. Are you finding it easier to live your faith in in the new situation or is it too early to tell?
Well, funnily enough. My academic job, as you know, Ruth, incredibly hard work. You never really switch off and you see people work themselves to the bone for not badly paid jobs, but not great paid jobs. And but having moved here. The quality of life is so much better. So I’m able to switch off a little bit, even though I’ve got very high profile role.
And, you know, we just have more time for things. So I guess what I’m trying to say about all of that is there’s been a little bit of a of a reboot. And in terms of living my faith is probably I haven’t, I’m not doing anything new or different. I’m still acting and thinking and responding in the same way I was before. But I have had several opportunities to openly discuss my faith or the fact I’m a Christian and go to church, with colleagues and then, funnily enough, with with academics.
So, it’s funny how things come around, but there’s two separate couples who I’ve had contact with, sowed seeds with, throughout the last 20 years in the research world who I’m now in touch with as a professional scientist in industry. And they’ve entered a new stage of openness. And so it’s been really special this last six months.
It’s awesome. Yeah, that’s a that’s a reward in itself, isn’t it?
When do you feel close to God?
Every morning. I am such a broken, corrupt human being that unless I had practiced the habit. Or embraced the habit that I built up over the last few years of praying and just listening to a little podcast or praying or just spending, having the first few thoughts of the day with God and with Christ and meditating on his word or whatever.
Unless I do that, by the end of the day, I’m so far off the rails. You know what’s inside my heart and inside my mind is is horrific. So, yeah, I’d say.
I’m not talking about, I can’t point to mountaintop experiences, I’m talking about on a daily basis I’m most close to God when I deliberately take that time. And I guess one of the things I’ve learned the last five to 10 years is that a very important passage has come back to me and has meant a lot more to me in a fresh way. It’s actually the passage which Alister spoke on all those years ago, when I became a Christian, which is John 15, you know, I am the vine, you are the branches.
And Christ talks a lot in that chapter about abiding in me. Remaining in me. And in fact, that theme of abiding in God I’ve come to understand is throughout the Bible, but maybe in language that we don’t recognise yet. David speaks a lot about the best place he ever could live would be in the temple. And what he’s talking about there is actually because he understood the temple was the place where God’s presence was. He’s talking about drawing, coming into the presence of God and dwelling in God’s house. And so I think, yeah, Jesus is sort of picking up that theme again in John and and encouraging his disciples and by proxy this is how our lives should be lived. Everything we do should be in some mystical and wonderful way at rest in him.
And I struggle to do that. I struggle with that practice of remaining in God throughout the day. But I guess, you know, those days those few days when you get it right, you find your work is that much more of a joy. The way you’re interacting with your wife and your children, is that much more meaningful. Because everything is under, in some way, his sovereign lordship and he is present there with you and you are trying to say things and do things and work in a way that is honouring him, you know, prayerfully.
Yeah. Which podcast do you listen to? Is it the daily audio bible or do you have another one that you listen to?
There’s a Catholic one Pray as You Go. Which I really love. It’s often meditative. And then for the most breathtaking and stimulating kind of opening up the scriptures, rather than a meditative thing, I listen to the Bible Project. Now the Bible Project has YouTube videos, but they also have a whole series of podcasts where Tim and John just chat like mates over a particular theme or a particular passage and really explore it. And then they open it up and they often go all the way from the beginning through all the the Old Testament, the exodus, the exile. And then bring it back, have it all pointing to Christ. And you know, it’s.
It’s mind-blowing isn’t it?
It’s a really wonderful resource. It’s sort of democratizing orthodox deep theology for everyday people. To the extent that yeah. I get a lot out of what they are doing.
Awesome. I will put links to those in the show notes.
Last question, which is the big one. What’s one thing about God or Christianity you wish everybody knew?
Can I break it down?
Yes. Attack it how you will.
So to those people listening who already have faith, I guess I would like us to recognise that salvation is to be worked out throughout all your life. It’s not a moment. It’s not a switch. It’s an ongoing thing. I firmly believe you can lose your faith and actually lose your position in the kingdom. That’s a theological debate for another day.
But going back to something you and I have talked about previously, I think one of my sadnesses was seeing a lot of young people at university fired up for Christ, seeing overseas missions work as the ultimate ideal. And I really believe if Australia is to be transformed, if the West is to have any kind of faith when Christ returns, then we need to take seriously the mission field that’s in our daily lives and on the doorstep here.
And see that as as precious and as important as going overseas. And I don’t want to detract from from those who are called overseas. But I think sometimes some people maybe value that as the the most glorious thing a Christian can do. And the ideal.
And maybe even easier than just working out your faith where you are. Sharing your faith, where you are. Reaching the people, where you are. It feels easier to go to some strange, exotic place. And, you know, you feel like that will be easier to do. But but actually, you know, God may be calling you to do it here and now.
Yeah, I think that’s I think that’s true. Yeah. And it’s hard here and now.
What else? So for those who aren’t of faith. Yeah. I mean, it’s pretty obvious. I just guess I hope everyone. Has the opportunity to take seriously whether the claims of Jesus, are real or not, and not just dismiss them.
And what I’ve talked about, my example of how I came to faith it is a very important piece of evidence because the evidence of testimony is is the same evidence that’s held up in court and convicts people. And judges make rulings as to what is true or false on a case based on witness. So you can dismiss my story as fantasy. But in doing that just be cognizant you’re dismissing something that’s considered by the highest law of the land as serious evidence. Yeah, but I guess I’d also say that God’s grace is mind blowing and people can be people of faith in all sorts of colours and ways and shapes. Yes. So it’s not like we want to make you into a particular type of human being with particular sort of understanding the world.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s an important thing for people of faith to realise as well. You’re as unique as God created you, completely unique and he’s got a unique plan for your life. So, yeah, take it. Run with it. That’s something I feel very strongly about.
Thanks so much for sharing with us tonight.
Thanks, Ruth. It’s been a pleasure.